When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. Damage: 55. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. With practice almost anything is possible. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. There are four major handgun founding factors. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. The FBI cant make up its mind and bounces back and forth. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Are there exceptions? Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. WebThe Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Which is better? So In a effort to As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. Lexipol. handgun on the UN Side. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. Its a High Point .40S&W. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. CHEERS. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not There was no blood on the floor below him. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. A 35-45 psi So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. Never held a weapon till boot camp. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! I meanwtf? My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. We can argue 9 vs 45. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. So many guns so little time! Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. So that is where the saying and belief came from. Millenials and their bias arguments. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. That is those of us that has and carries guns. View our Terms of Service Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Cpl. I am old school. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. Source: With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. Plenty of gang shootings. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Generous readers sustain our work. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Shot placement rules. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. Sad. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Come On People!! A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. thanks for your time, greg. Open the tools menu in your browser. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. I know I prefer .45ACP. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. D.R. The money has to come from somewhere. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. I love it. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. The slower 45acp round FMJ will pass through but leaving more energy expended plus a larger wound channel so the same to a lesser degree applies to the 45 acp FMJ; but, if you have 45acp JHP in the gun usually one hit whether it be in the shoulder, leg or chest area game over. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. I am older now, living in the city. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. All rights reserved. I spend a great deal of time on the range. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. The 45 1911 did just that. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. 1SGT. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. Thanks. I know this is off topic. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. A .223 is just 55 grains. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. WebAs shown in Fig. Good job! Be Safe Out There. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! Love it. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. The results may surprise many as it did myself. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. Unless they needed concealablity. THAT shot better make a change. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. I am a classic ). His career began as a special agent with NCIS. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. False. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Make your best shot number one. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? Psychological factors play a much greater role. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. Your skull is very thick in places (base of the skull) and some bullets arent designed for that kind of penetration. Practice thats all it takes. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. Its hesitation that makes people miss. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. Lexipol. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. ammo. The objective of this study was to construct a WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. It goes in a like a nail.. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. Both are great calibers. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. EVER! #firearmtraining. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Thank you Bill ! I think its preference and if you can conceal it. I like my Colt GOV. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. Great article by the way. The double stack G19 is thicker. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. I served in the USMC and in combat. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century.